Friday, March 30, 2007
Why do we no longer kneel during the Eucharistic prayers during Ordinary time?
AJ asked this question of Father Charles Schramm on the "Ask the Pastor" page of the web site of St. Mary's Church in Hales Corners. It's a good question, given that section 43 of the GIRM [131 pp. pdf] says
Fr. Schramm, however, responds
It certainly is, though perhaps not in the way Fr. Chuck intended. ¶ 3/30/2007 05:00:00 PM
In the dioceses of the United States of America, they [the Faithful] should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. ...
Fr. Schramm, however, responds
Dear AJ
This is a complex issue. In the earliest Church the posture during the Eucharistic Prayer was standing since it was considered THE posture of respect. At one of the early Councils it was decreed that "standing would be the appropriate posture from this time forward." In addition to being divinely founded the Church is also a human institution and the choice between kneeling and standing has gone back and forth. Since standing was adopted here at St. Mary's especially during the Easter Season it was decided to be consistent and continue this posture throughout the year.
If you were to worship in the Eastern Rite churches--including those in union with Rome you would find that they have retained standing as the appropriate posture during the Eucharistic Prayer.
Please note that since kneeling is a penitential posture we do incorporate it during the Penitential Rite during Lent which is considered THE penitential season of the Church year.
Hope this is helpful!
Fr. Chuck
It certainly is, though perhaps not in the way Fr. Chuck intended. ¶ 3/30/2007 05:00:00 PM
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The language of the GIRM is very important. It syas 'should kneel, not, 'must kneel'. Words matter.
# posted by 
: 10:52 AM
: 10:52 AM
Correct, Anony.
The GIRM does NOT say "May" nor "could" nor "might."
It says SHOULD.
Of course, in your world, Anony, questioning ontology ("...the meaning of 'is' is...") is sagacious.
In the real world, it's not only not germane--it's folly.
So in the case of Fr. Schramm, one could mumble something about Folly Leaders.
And it should, (not must) be accurate.
The GIRM does NOT say "May" nor "could" nor "might."
It says SHOULD.
Of course, in your world, Anony, questioning ontology ("...the meaning of 'is' is...") is sagacious.
In the real world, it's not only not germane--it's folly.
So in the case of Fr. Schramm, one could mumble something about Folly Leaders.
And it should, (not must) be accurate.
Let me try it in a sentence. "Fr. Chuck should know from the GIRM that they should be kneeling and should not be standing at St. Mary's."
Fr. Chuck's old parish St. Sebs also does not kneel (I've been a member for 8 mos). When asked the Pastor said that this was the tradition here. There are some of us who do kneel appropriately. I am in my 40's, and it is mostly the older ladies who do kneel. I just don't know how this can go on. I looked up the GIRM and sure enough, it is SHOULD. For me it shows proper reverence. Kneeling is the Catholic tradition - and we are a universal Church.
# posted by : 8:21 PM
: 8:21 PM
Oh please! In canon and liturgical law, language such as this is specific to give leeway. If the rubric is meant to give no leeway, then the language would say 'must'. The Church has no wish for strict and rigid uniformity in maters dealing with liturgical posture.
# posted by : 8:27 PM
: 8:27 PM
Coincidentally, the readings for the day I'm posting this include "at the name of Jesus every knee should bend" (Phil 2:10).
Quiet Catholic, Fr. Dick at St. Seb's was long my pastor at St. Al's, where there also isn't kneeling. I heard Fr. Dick give a number of different explanations for not kneeling, usually along the lines of what Fr. Chuck said. Though there's been standing instead of kneeling at St. Al's in the 17 or so years I've been a member, I don't recall him using this "it's traditional here" argument.
Note that if the Liturgy Team gives you the brush-off, the run-around, and doubletalk about a practice long enough, they provide themselves with the additional argument that the practice has become "a tradition".
Anonymous, you cite nothing specific to support your interpretation. If what you say is true, wouldn't Fr. Chuck cite your interpretation rather than so conspicuously avoid any mention of the GIRM? I note GIRM 43 includes this,
"With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal."
Are we to think the word "should" here tells us what we ought to do, but elsewhere "should" does not tell the ministers what they ought to do? Under your interpretation of "should", Quiet Catholic is at least as free to kneel at Mass at St. Seb's when directed to stand as St. Seb's is to direct him to stand when the GIRM says kneel.
Quiet Catholic, Fr. Dick at St. Seb's was long my pastor at St. Al's, where there also isn't kneeling. I heard Fr. Dick give a number of different explanations for not kneeling, usually along the lines of what Fr. Chuck said. Though there's been standing instead of kneeling at St. Al's in the 17 or so years I've been a member, I don't recall him using this "it's traditional here" argument.
Note that if the Liturgy Team gives you the brush-off, the run-around, and doubletalk about a practice long enough, they provide themselves with the additional argument that the practice has become "a tradition".
Anonymous, you cite nothing specific to support your interpretation. If what you say is true, wouldn't Fr. Chuck cite your interpretation rather than so conspicuously avoid any mention of the GIRM? I note GIRM 43 includes this,
"With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal."
Are we to think the word "should" here tells us what we ought to do, but elsewhere "should" does not tell the ministers what they ought to do? Under your interpretation of "should", Quiet Catholic is at least as free to kneel at Mass at St. Seb's when directed to stand as St. Seb's is to direct him to stand when the GIRM says kneel.
Unbelievable that these priests are pulling this crap again. Shame on those who follow this line of thinking.
# posted by : 1:23 PM
: 1:23 PM
"....a member of the laity SHOULD avoid slapping the snot out of a priest who derogates the meaning of "should."
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