Monday, August 1, 2005
St Alphonsus Liguori (1696 - 1787)
On the patron saint of our parish, for his feast day.
Today he would be the young associate who went to court to argue a senior partner's interpretation of a document.
The latter might have then been held in higher esteem than the former. Those were the days!
If the kids could also understand him, he might wonder at our parish's Children's Liturgy of the Word.
He was promoted.
I'd call our parish masses unhurried.
Our parish, by contrast, operates by repressed quarreling, or as we call it, "consensus."
When you started reading this, what punchline came to mind?
Religious "order"? It's a term of art.
From Universalis
On the patron saint of our parish, for his feast day.
He was a Neapolitan lawyer who lost a court case in a spectacular fashion, when it turned out that a key document in his case had been misinterpreted by him and in fact proved his opponent's case instead.
Today he would be the young associate who went to court to argue a senior partner's interpretation of a document.
He immediately left the law and studied for the priesthood.
The latter might have then been held in higher esteem than the former. Those were the days!
He preached in the rural districts around Naples, and it was his boast that he never delivered a sermon that the poorest old woman in the congregation could not understand.
If the kids could also understand him, he might wonder at our parish's Children's Liturgy of the Word.
His bishop asked him to establish an order of missionaries to work in the countryside, and the Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer (the Redemptorists) was formally established in 1749.
He was promoted.
He was a bishop from 1762 to 1775, insisting on the dignified and unhurried celebration of the Mass and the firm treatment of persistent wrongdoers.
I'd call our parish masses unhurried.
The Redemptorists proved to be a quarrelsome congregation: their formal establishment had been delayed by more than a decade because of internal dissension.
Our parish, by contrast, operates by repressed quarreling, or as we call it, "consensus."
After his retirement Alphonsus had to try to make peace within the congregation.
When you started reading this, what punchline came to mind?
Unfortunately his old failing returned and he signed a new Constitution for the Redemptorists without reading it properly (though, to be fair to him, he was 80 and in poor health at the time). The result was that the Redemptorists split into two separate congregations, both of whom rejected Alphonsus: peace was not restored until some time after his death.
Religious "order"? It's a term of art.
Nevertheless, in spite of all this storm and trouble, Alphonsus lived an exceptionally holy life. He was also an outstanding moral theologian, and won back sinners to the fold by patience and moderation. His work needs to be better known today, when there seems to be no rational middle course between puritanism and permissiveness.
From Universalis
P.S. The photo is of a statue of St. Alphonsus which my parish obtained when St. Alphonsus Hospital (in Port Washington?) closed.
As I reread that little bio, St. Alphonsus looks more and more a fitting patron for the parish. With the September 2005 Parish Council meeting approaching, as of last Sunday the latest minutes in the rack in the church foyer were from the September 2004 meeting. It seems St. Alphonsus still isn't paying attention.
Update: Saint Alphonsus Ligouri, Copiosa apud eum Redemptio: works by and about him at A Catholic Page for Lovers; and Things Redemptorist, The Basilica of Our Lady of Perpetual Help, Boston, Massachusetts
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Put "ism" on it and you can make anything sound extreme, say if someone accused Fr. McBrien of moderationism.
You belong to my sister's parish! They took the kneelers out, I recall. A church which is loath to cause slight discomfort by requiring parishioners to kneel for a few minutes is not going to ask anybody to face any really tough issues. (Because, remember, we're all "Resurrection people" now!)
I heard a lot of complaining about Dolan from Catholic liberals when he first came here, but what changes has he actually made? I'm not being snarky - I'm a recent returnee to the Church and the Milwaukee Archdiocese doesn't look that different to me than it did during my salad days at MU. Is there any parish where liberals are not in charge besides Mary, Help of Christians (the one place where the Tridentine Mass still reigns)? I'd like a bit more orthodoxy, but that doesn't mean I want to time-travel back to 1955 every week.
Donna
I heard a lot of complaining about Dolan from Catholic liberals when he first came here, but what changes has he actually made? I'm not being snarky - I'm a recent returnee to the Church and the Milwaukee Archdiocese doesn't look that different to me than it did during my salad days at MU. Is there any parish where liberals are not in charge besides Mary, Help of Christians (the one place where the Tridentine Mass still reigns)? I'd like a bit more orthodoxy, but that doesn't mean I want to time-travel back to 1955 every week.
Donna
# posted by 
: 7:08 PM
: 7:08 PM
Donna,
I've been wondering the same thing. Where is the happy medium? I have been to the Latin Mass at St. Mary, Help of Christians its the only Church of its kind in the dicoese as far as I know. In the Metro Section of the Journal there are other Churches listed as doing the Latin Mass but I am not sure if they are recognized by the archdiosecese. Does anyone know if the Madison diocese is more or less liberal than the Milwakee one? I know the Lacrosse Diocese is fairly conservative, but thats a bit of a drive to say the least!
I've been wondering the same thing. Where is the happy medium? I have been to the Latin Mass at St. Mary, Help of Christians its the only Church of its kind in the dicoese as far as I know. In the Metro Section of the Journal there are other Churches listed as doing the Latin Mass but I am not sure if they are recognized by the archdiosecese. Does anyone know if the Madison diocese is more or less liberal than the Milwakee one? I know the Lacrosse Diocese is fairly conservative, but thats a bit of a drive to say the least!
# posted by : 11:49 PM
: 11:49 PM
Try St Anthony's in Milwukee for a decent Novus Ordo Mass. Or St James in Kenosha. If in a pinch the Basilica is good.
St Ant's and St James kneel at the altar rail for communion. They have permission to do this. Of course they kneel at the consecration. Only the parishes stuck in the 1970's stand--they are too "sophisticated" to believe in the Real Presence.
Sorry, but from what I hear St Alphonsus is one of the all time worst parishes along with St Mary's in Hales Corners and Our Lady of Lourdes. I almost forgot St Romans. That priest told me he "didn't give a damn what the Church wants" him to do.
If it weren't for those two decent parishes and the Basilica we'd be in big trouble.
Dolan has laid down the law and the priests simply refuse to comply. They simply will not budge. Also the Chancery is officially against him. How he can even function is beyond me.
People have been taught a completely different religion for 25+ years and they aren't about to give that up. That would mean that Weakland and other bishops and priests made complete and utter fools of them.
It took 30 years to make this mess and chances are it will take 25 more to clean it up.
This kind requires prayer and fasting to conquer.
St Ant's and St James kneel at the altar rail for communion. They have permission to do this. Of course they kneel at the consecration. Only the parishes stuck in the 1970's stand--they are too "sophisticated" to believe in the Real Presence.
Sorry, but from what I hear St Alphonsus is one of the all time worst parishes along with St Mary's in Hales Corners and Our Lady of Lourdes. I almost forgot St Romans. That priest told me he "didn't give a damn what the Church wants" him to do.
If it weren't for those two decent parishes and the Basilica we'd be in big trouble.
Dolan has laid down the law and the priests simply refuse to comply. They simply will not budge. Also the Chancery is officially against him. How he can even function is beyond me.
People have been taught a completely different religion for 25+ years and they aren't about to give that up. That would mean that Weakland and other bishops and priests made complete and utter fools of them.
It took 30 years to make this mess and chances are it will take 25 more to clean it up.
This kind requires prayer and fasting to conquer.
# posted by : 11:57 AM
: 11:57 AM
Thanks for the information.
Concidentially, a new co-worker told me today his wife works at a very liberal South Side parish office. He told me they "all hate" Dolan and were depressed for a solid week after Benedict's election.
Funny, he said that his wife was once very devout but has nearly been cured of her faith after the experience of working for the Milwaukee Archdiocese. "She doesn't think priests are anything special," he said.
Well, no surprise there. They probably don't think they're anything special either - just social activists in vestments.
Apparently though, this lady, a Catholic liberal herself, can't connect the dots. It doesn't seem to ever occur to these libs that when you spend over 30 years tearing down the foundation of your home you shouldn't wonder why the walls are caving in.
Pray for our Archbishop!
Concidentially, a new co-worker told me today his wife works at a very liberal South Side parish office. He told me they "all hate" Dolan and were depressed for a solid week after Benedict's election.
Funny, he said that his wife was once very devout but has nearly been cured of her faith after the experience of working for the Milwaukee Archdiocese. "She doesn't think priests are anything special," he said.
Well, no surprise there. They probably don't think they're anything special either - just social activists in vestments.
Apparently though, this lady, a Catholic liberal herself, can't connect the dots. It doesn't seem to ever occur to these libs that when you spend over 30 years tearing down the foundation of your home you shouldn't wonder why the walls are caving in.
Pray for our Archbishop!
# posted by : 6:10 PM
: 6:10 PM
I don't understand how there can be so many "liberal" Catholics with so much influence. In my experience when it comes to liberal Catholics my age (college students) the word liberal is interchangable with deadbeat. The "liberal" Catholics, who feel the Church can't tell them what to do on abortion, birth control, etc are also the ones who haven't been to church since confirmation and prior to that their apperances were limited to Christmas and Easter (unless on vaction of course.) The most traditional Catholics my age that I know are ones I met at Church at college as they are only ones who have continued any involvemnet in the church (with a few exceptions.)Though the little church there was built in the 1970's without kneelsers several people opt to kneel on the bare floor instead of stand during the consecration for example.
In the baby-boomer generation is there a huge portion of liberal Catholics who instead of droping out of Church (like their kids) feel the need to "modernize" and be "progressive"? What is their motivation? And what is the deal with liberal Priests? How can anyone who disagrees with so many of church's values decide to devoute their life to it? Anyway That is the impression I am getting. The way I see it, the wheat and the chaff are being seperated. Traditionalists will for the most part have bigger familes and each generation will stay loyal to the church. Liberal baby boomers will try to change the Church, there kids will only nominaly think of themselves as Catholic and I'd be surprised if their grandkids ever attend a mass outside of their own baptism and a handful of weddings and funerals if that.
Also, in regards to area churches, one of the comments above said "St Alphonsus is one of the all time worst parishes along with St Mary's." For any St. Al's parishoners reading this any comments on Fr. Walley? I always thought he was a very good Priest. I've seen stuff on this blog about Father Dick and the "Aikenite Rite" on this blog but nothing on Fr. Walley. Also does anyone here have any experience with/comments about St. Martin of Tours in Franklin? Also anyone able to answer my earlier questions pertaing to the other Dioceses in the state?
It wasn't until fairly recently that I realized there was such tension between traditional and liberal Catholics within the church. At mass a few weeks ago the deacon was doing the homily and he said someting along the lines of how some people "want to change the church to reflect the image of what they think it should be," a none to subtle barb aimed at Conservatives.
I wonder why the traditional Catholics don't seem to be winning in the Milw. Archdiocese. Anyway this is all a fascinting tangent, sorry for posting a reply longer than the orignal post itself and the bad spelling/grammer, just lost a close poker game and I've got work early.
In the baby-boomer generation is there a huge portion of liberal Catholics who instead of droping out of Church (like their kids) feel the need to "modernize" and be "progressive"? What is their motivation? And what is the deal with liberal Priests? How can anyone who disagrees with so many of church's values decide to devoute their life to it? Anyway That is the impression I am getting. The way I see it, the wheat and the chaff are being seperated. Traditionalists will for the most part have bigger familes and each generation will stay loyal to the church. Liberal baby boomers will try to change the Church, there kids will only nominaly think of themselves as Catholic and I'd be surprised if their grandkids ever attend a mass outside of their own baptism and a handful of weddings and funerals if that.
Also, in regards to area churches, one of the comments above said "St Alphonsus is one of the all time worst parishes along with St Mary's." For any St. Al's parishoners reading this any comments on Fr. Walley? I always thought he was a very good Priest. I've seen stuff on this blog about Father Dick and the "Aikenite Rite" on this blog but nothing on Fr. Walley. Also does anyone here have any experience with/comments about St. Martin of Tours in Franklin? Also anyone able to answer my earlier questions pertaing to the other Dioceses in the state?
It wasn't until fairly recently that I realized there was such tension between traditional and liberal Catholics within the church. At mass a few weeks ago the deacon was doing the homily and he said someting along the lines of how some people "want to change the church to reflect the image of what they think it should be," a none to subtle barb aimed at Conservatives.
I wonder why the traditional Catholics don't seem to be winning in the Milw. Archdiocese. Anyway this is all a fascinting tangent, sorry for posting a reply longer than the orignal post itself and the bad spelling/grammer, just lost a close poker game and I've got work early.
# posted by : 12:11 AM
: 12:11 AM
The old folks are usually the liberal ones. They have the time and have been at the liberal front before I was out of diapers. They are dying out, and no one is replacing them since they drove their children away from the Church. Many heartily believe that they are devout Catholics who are doing us a huge favor by attempting to change the Church so we can do as we please.
My Mother in Law goes to St Martin of Tours and it's the same old, same old crapola. I don't fault her, she believes whatever the priest tells her. What I get from her is that many of her friends (all 70+ years old) at St M of T loved the DaVinci code, don't care for Dolan, never go to confession, etc, the usual laundry list of dissent. She has mentioned that none of the young parents go to Mass but they drop their kids off for CCD. She is vexed because none of the little kids can say the Our Father or the Hail Mary. None of the little ones in CCD go to Mass either but for some reason they are taken to get the sacraments. She thinks it the young parents fault. I told her these young parents were taught by her old friends that going to Mass wasn't neccessary. St Marys in Hales Corners maintains that you don't have to go to Mass--even after the DRE and Patoral associate are shown the Catechism (incidentally, in their view, Catholics also don't have indulgences anymore either. Or a Creed or Gloria. And Mass is "just a sacred meal") For the longest time my MIL debated First Confession before First Communion. She kept saying, "They can't sin before the fourth grade!" So much more to say--not enough time to write it all. But I do believe that they went back to kneeling after they built the new Church.
According to my MIL it was okay for them to stand at the consecration because THE PEOPLE decided! I am sure that sounded very democratic and fair to her!!!My in laws were HORRIFIED when I told them that our priest has preached against contraception in the homily. They thought that was awful and that he was a terrible priest.
I have been to the diocese of La Crosse when it was under Bishop Burke. We visited the Cathedral, Viterbo U and Our Lady of Guadalupe Shrine. Viterbo has a gorgeous chapel but I saw these pamphlets for a retreat they were running all about the "Goddess". Speakers were the usual array of ultrafeminist nunnies. I approached one of the nuns and asked her about it. She first said, sure it was Christian. I said we don't worship goddesses in Christianity. She said it predates Christianity. I said God is neither male or female, so who is this "Goddess" they intend to worship? She stammered and then said she wasn't the nunnie in charge of this retreat, when she could see she wasn't going to get anywhere with me. They wouldn't get me the nunnie in charge so I just mailed the offending brochure with a letter of my disgust at such rot to Bishop Burke who wrote a wonderful letter back to me and said he's take care of it. Wish I knew if he managed to surpress it. But Our Lady of Guadalupe Shrine was awesome and the Mass at the Cathedral very good with decent music which is a big plus.
These silly old folks think they they are still on the cutting edge and their hippie songs are the latest thing and they are so so so HURT if you laugh about how old fashioned and out of it they are. Excuse my frustration but I am tired of the constant humoring they require.
As far as "how some people 'want to change the church to reflect the image of what they think it should be,' a none to subtle barb aimed at Conservatives" where on earth did they come up with that idiocy? When did they become those appointed by God to change the Church? They have always been the ones tearing down the Catholic Church! Its they who refuse to believe the Catechism and Vatican 2! The deacon probably never actually read Vatican 2 and thinks he knows what it says. I have come across that a lot--particularly when it comes to Latin in the Mass.
The reason for all of this confusion is quite simple you know. It's the Devil. And he is never so powerful as when silly humans think they have it all figured out and are so darn smart.
My Mother in Law goes to St Martin of Tours and it's the same old, same old crapola. I don't fault her, she believes whatever the priest tells her. What I get from her is that many of her friends (all 70+ years old) at St M of T loved the DaVinci code, don't care for Dolan, never go to confession, etc, the usual laundry list of dissent. She has mentioned that none of the young parents go to Mass but they drop their kids off for CCD. She is vexed because none of the little kids can say the Our Father or the Hail Mary. None of the little ones in CCD go to Mass either but for some reason they are taken to get the sacraments. She thinks it the young parents fault. I told her these young parents were taught by her old friends that going to Mass wasn't neccessary. St Marys in Hales Corners maintains that you don't have to go to Mass--even after the DRE and Patoral associate are shown the Catechism (incidentally, in their view, Catholics also don't have indulgences anymore either. Or a Creed or Gloria. And Mass is "just a sacred meal") For the longest time my MIL debated First Confession before First Communion. She kept saying, "They can't sin before the fourth grade!" So much more to say--not enough time to write it all. But I do believe that they went back to kneeling after they built the new Church.
According to my MIL it was okay for them to stand at the consecration because THE PEOPLE decided! I am sure that sounded very democratic and fair to her!!!My in laws were HORRIFIED when I told them that our priest has preached against contraception in the homily. They thought that was awful and that he was a terrible priest.
I have been to the diocese of La Crosse when it was under Bishop Burke. We visited the Cathedral, Viterbo U and Our Lady of Guadalupe Shrine. Viterbo has a gorgeous chapel but I saw these pamphlets for a retreat they were running all about the "Goddess". Speakers were the usual array of ultrafeminist nunnies. I approached one of the nuns and asked her about it. She first said, sure it was Christian. I said we don't worship goddesses in Christianity. She said it predates Christianity. I said God is neither male or female, so who is this "Goddess" they intend to worship? She stammered and then said she wasn't the nunnie in charge of this retreat, when she could see she wasn't going to get anywhere with me. They wouldn't get me the nunnie in charge so I just mailed the offending brochure with a letter of my disgust at such rot to Bishop Burke who wrote a wonderful letter back to me and said he's take care of it. Wish I knew if he managed to surpress it. But Our Lady of Guadalupe Shrine was awesome and the Mass at the Cathedral very good with decent music which is a big plus.
These silly old folks think they they are still on the cutting edge and their hippie songs are the latest thing and they are so so so HURT if you laugh about how old fashioned and out of it they are. Excuse my frustration but I am tired of the constant humoring they require.
As far as "how some people 'want to change the church to reflect the image of what they think it should be,' a none to subtle barb aimed at Conservatives" where on earth did they come up with that idiocy? When did they become those appointed by God to change the Church? They have always been the ones tearing down the Catholic Church! Its they who refuse to believe the Catechism and Vatican 2! The deacon probably never actually read Vatican 2 and thinks he knows what it says. I have come across that a lot--particularly when it comes to Latin in the Mass.
The reason for all of this confusion is quite simple you know. It's the Devil. And he is never so powerful as when silly humans think they have it all figured out and are so darn smart.
# posted by : 4:13 PM
: 4:13 PM
Thanks to the above poster for addressing so many of my questions. I suppose that the future of the Church in the US will be mostly about sacrificing quanity for quality.
# posted by : 11:58 PM
: 11:58 PM
I am a returning Catholic (a "revert") having been in the "evangelical" protestant churches after growing up in a nominal Catholic family. Several years ago I started attending St.Mary's in Hales Corners. I was just happy to "come Home" to the Church so I was pretty oblivious to much of the liberal nonsense. But as I educated myself through good Catholic friends that God led me to and through good apologetics books and the Catechism, my eyes were opened. Tired of seeing the occasional vile site of lesbian couples bringing the bread & wine forward, I left.
Through 2 wonderful Catholics: Al & Margo Szews, I became aware of St. John the Evangelist(84th & Coldspring) in Greenfield just down the way from where I live. They help lead the local chapter of CUF (Catholics United for the Faith. Margo was Scott Hahn's wife's sponsor when she converted, and incidently Scott Hahns sponsor who is a political science professor at Marquette also attends) I've never seen such humble devotion and love for Christ and His Church in a body of believers. Now I'm really home...Thank the Lord and His Mother. There is weekly confession and 2 morning masses at 6:45 and 8 am.
- D
Greenfield, Wi
Through 2 wonderful Catholics: Al & Margo Szews, I became aware of St. John the Evangelist(84th & Coldspring) in Greenfield just down the way from where I live. They help lead the local chapter of CUF (Catholics United for the Faith. Margo was Scott Hahn's wife's sponsor when she converted, and incidently Scott Hahns sponsor who is a political science professor at Marquette also attends) I've never seen such humble devotion and love for Christ and His Church in a body of believers. Now I'm really home...Thank the Lord and His Mother. There is weekly confession and 2 morning masses at 6:45 and 8 am.
- D
Greenfield, Wi
# posted by : 9:20 AM
: 9:20 AM
Ifell into this site as i was looking on the web about St Alphonsus Liguori as a feast of the week.i read some of the comments with horror if you are a member of a club you obay the rules ,you cant have people making up rules to suite themselfs.Its the exact with the Catholic church no aborting life full stop ,no gays, kneel at the turning of the bread&wine into the body&blood of Christ, love your nighbour (so at mass just concentrate on your own prayers and dont worry about what anyone around you is doing...just you and God)Keep the faith as we were taught by JESUS & LISTEN TO THE GOSPEL people gave up their lives to pass on the word of God 11 of the Apostels had horriable deaths passing on what they saw in real life...think about it.
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