Sunday, July 31, 2005
In quest for broader appeal, churches change names, places
Tom Heinen reports in today's Milwaukee Journal Sentinel from what was once Garfield Avenue Baptist Church on Milwaukee's near north side but is now Spring Creek Church in suburban Pewaukee.
It's part of a trend to dropping denominational designations and even the word "Church" from names, to attract people who have negative experiences or impressions. Here's the accompanying positive appeal, according to Senior Pastor Chip Bernhard.
Heinen could find people in the congregation without and with denominational backgrounds to provide testimonials.
I'm starting to get the impression this has something to do with the Bible. The upcoming Feast of the Assumption seems like a good opportunity for a homily on the Catholic Church and the Bible. More likely we'll hear homilies conflating ex cathedra and ex nihilo. ¶ 7/31/2005 09:40:00 AM
Tom Heinen reports in today's Milwaukee Journal Sentinel from what was once Garfield Avenue Baptist Church on Milwaukee's near north side but is now Spring Creek Church in suburban Pewaukee.
Decades of steady growth have gotten an extra boost in recent years from expanded activities and a $4.2 million sanctuary with state-of-the-art sound, video projection and theater-style lighting.
Average attendance on Sundays - including 1,150 people in the two morning worship services and more than 200 young children in Sunday school classes who do not attend the services - hit a new high this month.
It's part of a trend to dropping denominational designations and even the word "Church" from names, to attract people who have negative experiences or impressions. Here's the accompanying positive appeal, according to Senior Pastor Chip Bernhard.
"...We like to say we are a church that anyone can attend that teaches and follows the Bible. We take the Bible seriously here," he said.
Heinen could find people in the congregation without and with denominational backgrounds to provide testimonials.
That [taking the Bible seriously] attracted Rani Hershberger, 43, a mother of three from Brookfield, who began attending a women's Bible study group at the church nearly five years ago. Hershberger, who has a non-denominational background, was new to the area at the time.
Asked why she and her family joined, she said, "The friendly people, and that they really stick to what the Bible says."
Eric Debelack, 46, and his wife, Lisa, 42, of Pewaukee gave a similar response. Then practicing Catholics, they attended a Spring Creek service at the invitation of a friend five years ago and stayed. They and others used terms such as warmth, love, Bible-based truths, Bible-study groups, life-skills classes, and a variety of other faith-based educational, recreational and cultural activities.
"As soon as you came in, you heard the message," Eric Debelack said. "You knew that the pastor was speaking to you directly. His message was powerful. The music was inspirational."
I'm starting to get the impression this has something to do with the Bible. The upcoming Feast of the Assumption seems like a good opportunity for a homily on the Catholic Church and the Bible. More likely we'll hear homilies conflating ex cathedra and ex nihilo. ¶ 7/31/2005 09:40:00 AM
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Experience shows that the vast majority of Catholics who 'bail' to non-denoms or Prots do so specifically for "below-the-belt" reasons--either Humanae Vitae or divorce.
Heinen didn't ask the right questions...
Heinen didn't ask the right questions...
FWIW, I once asked a co-worker who participates in welcoming newcomers to Elmbrook Church what Catholics said its appeal was. They tell her what they told Mr. Heinen.
I understand that, and maintain that it is still not the whole truth.
When we left our current parish to join another one, the "public" reason was time/distance.
Privately, it was a stinking CCD program, and a pastor who made Cpt. Queeg look like a Type B Flaccidity Model.
Which do YOU want printed in the newspaper?
When we left our current parish to join another one, the "public" reason was time/distance.
Privately, it was a stinking CCD program, and a pastor who made Cpt. Queeg look like a Type B Flaccidity Model.
Which do YOU want printed in the newspaper?
I don't see the connection between Catholic teaching on contraception and divorce and the appeal of evangelical churches. If someone found everything else about the Church congenial except these teachings, then it would seem more likely we would have seen a large exodus to, say, the Episcopal Church, and soon after the 1968 encyclical. Instead we've seen a steady decline in Mass attendance over that time, with evangelical churches conspicuously attracting large numbers of disaffected Catholics.
It is because Catholic parishes and pastors don't stand for anything--no truth, just mish mash. No relevance at all. There are NO
teachings/homilies on why we don't believe in contraception, much less abortion, no apologetics on why we believe certain doctrines, how we most certainly ARE Bible based, how compelling the Early Church Fathers are, etc. Homilies, quite frankly, stink because Father is too frightened that he will make people mad--if he even believes in the Catholic church, which in this archdiocese is unlikely.
There is no meat, just fluff and the people got hungry for truth and left. Too often Father is too busy telling people that those miracles in the Bible didn't really happen because that's what some misguided theologian maintains. You cannot feed people a steady diet of Mc Brien and not expect people to walk.
Having said that, every last person I have met that had a *problem* with the Catholic Church--not just said, "well, I liked what I was hearing over at Elmbrook, and who cares anyway since the Catholic Church (i.e. Father Hippie) says all churches are equal,"--every last one-- was mad over being divorced, angry they couldn't contracept and be sterilized without guilt, angry over what some nun supposedly did 50 years ago, and even mad at having to do a few extra things to get married outside the religion. So most of those people with a *bone to pick* were motivated by below the belt reasons.
But many people left because the Catholic mass is dumbed down, with the crappiest music ever,a diabolical force undermining Catholic teaching at every level, and nothing interesting ever said in the homily.
And, most importantly, not one of them was literate on what the Catholic Church teaches.
teachings/homilies on why we don't believe in contraception, much less abortion, no apologetics on why we believe certain doctrines, how we most certainly ARE Bible based, how compelling the Early Church Fathers are, etc. Homilies, quite frankly, stink because Father is too frightened that he will make people mad--if he even believes in the Catholic church, which in this archdiocese is unlikely.
There is no meat, just fluff and the people got hungry for truth and left. Too often Father is too busy telling people that those miracles in the Bible didn't really happen because that's what some misguided theologian maintains. You cannot feed people a steady diet of Mc Brien and not expect people to walk.
Having said that, every last person I have met that had a *problem* with the Catholic Church--not just said, "well, I liked what I was hearing over at Elmbrook, and who cares anyway since the Catholic Church (i.e. Father Hippie) says all churches are equal,"--every last one-- was mad over being divorced, angry they couldn't contracept and be sterilized without guilt, angry over what some nun supposedly did 50 years ago, and even mad at having to do a few extra things to get married outside the religion. So most of those people with a *bone to pick* were motivated by below the belt reasons.
But many people left because the Catholic mass is dumbed down, with the crappiest music ever,a diabolical force undermining Catholic teaching at every level, and nothing interesting ever said in the homily.
And, most importantly, not one of them was literate on what the Catholic Church teaches.
# posted by 
: 5:00 PM
: 5:00 PM
I wonder if you aren't confusing two different things: 1) the reason people have left the Catholic Church; and 2) the reason they are attracted to a given alternative. It is possible (perhaps even likely) that one could leave the Catholic Church because they wanted to divorce and remarry, and then choose Spring Hill Bible Fellowship because they found a community of warm, loving, Bible-teaching Christians.
It is amazing that the Church has no trouble driving otherwise faithful Catholics away from the Church because they married badly and try to right a wrong, meanwhile, it embraces and hides serial pederast priests. There is something wrong with the double standard.
It is amazing that the Church has no trouble driving otherwise faithful Catholics away from the Church because they married badly and try to right a wrong, meanwhile, it embraces and hides serial pederast priests. There is something wrong with the double standard.
# posted by : 1:42 AM
: 1:42 AM
I strongly echo what anonymous has said, mostly about the utter vapidity -- liturgical, homiletic and catechetical -- of American Catholic parish life, but also his/her comment at the end about the way divorced people are treated, versus the way child-raping priests have been treated. The latter point became very real for me last week when a long-divorced friend who came into the Catholic Church this past Easter told me about all the hoops they are making her jump through to get an annulment. She wasn't complaining about the hoops, really, but she did observe that "they" (Church authorities) seem a lot more vigilant against the prospect of keeping divorced people away from Communion than in keeping pederast clergy away from the rear ends of altar boys. You have to wonder how corrosive that cynicism -- a cynicism based in reality -- will be to her soul over time.
My wife left a vibrant, intellectually serious and conservative Presbyterian church to become Catholic seven years ago. She gave up so much in terms of serious attention to the Bible, solid teaching from the pulpit, and so forth. I came to the Church without that in my background, so it's been hard for me to understand what she's been missing. But it's really been getting to her lately, as we've been talking about how dry and empty and stagnant our experience of Catholicism has been -- and how insufficient, over time, has been the thing we keep telling ourselves: "Well, this is the True Church, and we have the Sacraments, and the Magisterium, so let's just lump it." That becomes very hard to sustain when you're trying to raise kids, and when you see your Evangelical friends deeply involved in stuff at their own churches, things that are not only social, but built around serious study of Scripture.
We know too much to go back to Protestantism, so that is not a temptation to us. But I can easily see why ill-catechized Catholics would make the move. And I get sick of the complacency many in the Catholic clergy, and even many among the orthodox RC laity, show about this problem. Our faith is not meant to be mere assent to the right doctrines, and following the rules. People aren't wrong to want a living faith, not just observance of the Law. If they don't get it in Catholicism, they might just be so hungry that they go somewhere where they do. Too many of us orthodox Catholics just sneer at those people. That's wrong.
My wife left a vibrant, intellectually serious and conservative Presbyterian church to become Catholic seven years ago. She gave up so much in terms of serious attention to the Bible, solid teaching from the pulpit, and so forth. I came to the Church without that in my background, so it's been hard for me to understand what she's been missing. But it's really been getting to her lately, as we've been talking about how dry and empty and stagnant our experience of Catholicism has been -- and how insufficient, over time, has been the thing we keep telling ourselves: "Well, this is the True Church, and we have the Sacraments, and the Magisterium, so let's just lump it." That becomes very hard to sustain when you're trying to raise kids, and when you see your Evangelical friends deeply involved in stuff at their own churches, things that are not only social, but built around serious study of Scripture.
We know too much to go back to Protestantism, so that is not a temptation to us. But I can easily see why ill-catechized Catholics would make the move. And I get sick of the complacency many in the Catholic clergy, and even many among the orthodox RC laity, show about this problem. Our faith is not meant to be mere assent to the right doctrines, and following the rules. People aren't wrong to want a living faith, not just observance of the Law. If they don't get it in Catholicism, they might just be so hungry that they go somewhere where they do. Too many of us orthodox Catholics just sneer at those people. That's wrong.
# posted by : 7:58 AM
: 7:58 AM
Anonymous
My experience with people who leave the Catholic Chuch is that the majority leave because they are not "Being fed." Ie they are not hearing or learning the Bible, their problems are not being solved and the lack of fellowship. They complain of lousy sermons, lousy music and priests who do not teach the Gospel. And to top it off the are faced with the problem of priest sexual abuse. I do not know of one parish in my area that has not been touched by the sexual abuse problem, including my own which lost a pastor due to a allegation of a sexual nature.
So our parish has been limping along with a pastor who does not give good homilies, a resident priest from a foriegn country and various visiting priests. Plus the DRE and adult education teachers are very liberal working aginst the orthodox new pastor.So is it any wonder that some parishiners are leaving for other demoninations.
My experience with people who leave the Catholic Chuch is that the majority leave because they are not "Being fed." Ie they are not hearing or learning the Bible, their problems are not being solved and the lack of fellowship. They complain of lousy sermons, lousy music and priests who do not teach the Gospel. And to top it off the are faced with the problem of priest sexual abuse. I do not know of one parish in my area that has not been touched by the sexual abuse problem, including my own which lost a pastor due to a allegation of a sexual nature.
So our parish has been limping along with a pastor who does not give good homilies, a resident priest from a foriegn country and various visiting priests. Plus the DRE and adult education teachers are very liberal working aginst the orthodox new pastor.So is it any wonder that some parishiners are leaving for other demoninations.
# posted by : 9:09 AM
: 9:09 AM
My experience mirrors anon's - most leave the Church because they aren't "being fed". I know someone who left the Catholic Church but is against contraception, while someone else who is against contraception but remains in the Church (obviously the latter is very common).
The one who left the Church perceived an emphasis on rules not love and works not faith. Add to that weak sermons and weak music and it's a potent witch's brew inducing many to leave.
The one who left the Church perceived an emphasis on rules not love and works not faith. Add to that weak sermons and weak music and it's a potent witch's brew inducing many to leave.
I think it is true that people leave the Church to be "fed" but as a former Evangelical I know that "feeding" is a pretty generic term. Dad29 is too simplistic in his "below the belt" theory, but I think one of the appeals of Evangelical Bible Churches is that they don't have much teaching on divorce or contraception and thus some of the hard edges of Christian life simply go off the radar.
Another aspect of the Evangelical mega-church is the cult of personality and the aspect of entertainment that are often part of being "fed." Liturgy and prayer are hard work, while getting down with the praise band is easy--one measures the success of Church by how one feels about it.
But at the end of the day, it is true that any, even scattered and tendentious, attention to the Bible often is better than the vapidity of suburban Catholicism.
Another aspect of the Evangelical mega-church is the cult of personality and the aspect of entertainment that are often part of being "fed." Liturgy and prayer are hard work, while getting down with the praise band is easy--one measures the success of Church by how one feels about it.
But at the end of the day, it is true that any, even scattered and tendentious, attention to the Bible often is better than the vapidity of suburban Catholicism.
A comment to Rod Dreher: It sounds as if you feel that you should just sit back and be served what you want in regards to what the Church offers or doesn't. Start a bible study in your home parish. Attend a Stuebenville conference with a bunch of youth. I just did, and boy was my cup filled, not to mention how positively it affected the youth with us. Teach the youth in your parish. Help organize a cursillo for your parish. Visit your sick. Start an adult catechesis class....and on, and on, and on. You are the Church. You can help fan the spark that could turn into a flame for many. You may not be able to do anything about Father's weak sermons, but there is a lot that you can do.
# posted by : 2:53 PM
: 2:53 PM
"It is amazing that the Church has no trouble driving otherwise faithful Catholics away from the Church because they married badly and try to right a wrong"
Didn't Jesus say something in the Bible about that? That you could not divorce? Are we so used to divorce now that we can't even perceive the wrongness of it? The Church did not decide divorce was not to occur. Jesus did.
So much for following Bible truths...!
Didn't Jesus say something in the Bible about that? That you could not divorce? Are we so used to divorce now that we can't even perceive the wrongness of it? The Church did not decide divorce was not to occur. Jesus did.
So much for following Bible truths...!
# posted by : 2:58 PM
: 2:58 PM
Julie is 100 percent right. The faithful remnant has the mission to reach out and evangelize. Try smiling even! Invite people to a Shoenstatt event or organize a prayer or rosary, Stations of the Cross. We have so much to offer its a shame.
Though--some people have told me they tried for YEARS to get one priest or another to have a rosary event, prayer night, anything and Father refused to the point of finally avoiding the interested people.
I very much though disagree with the Protestant emphasis on "feelings." Good feelings don't get us to heaven.
Though--some people have told me they tried for YEARS to get one priest or another to have a rosary event, prayer night, anything and Father refused to the point of finally avoiding the interested people.
I very much though disagree with the Protestant emphasis on "feelings." Good feelings don't get us to heaven.
# posted by : 3:05 PM
: 3:05 PM
Too many of us orthodox Catholics just sneer at those people. That's wrong.
I guess that includes sneering at our own priests, bishops and laity.
I guess that includes sneering at our own priests, bishops and laity.
TS:
So we should support Bishops and priests who don't teach the Catholic faith but their own version of it?
They took a vow of obedience to the Catholic Church, then chose to deny that vow. It seems odd that someone would want to be a Catholic priest, yet rejects the Catholic Church's teaching, and then with his bad influence causes other people to reject the Church.
Too many good Catholics said nothing while wayward clergy and religious destroyed the flock.
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So we should support Bishops and priests who don't teach the Catholic faith but their own version of it?
They took a vow of obedience to the Catholic Church, then chose to deny that vow. It seems odd that someone would want to be a Catholic priest, yet rejects the Catholic Church's teaching, and then with his bad influence causes other people to reject the Church.
Too many good Catholics said nothing while wayward clergy and religious destroyed the flock.
# posted by : 11:35 PM
: 11:35 PM<< Home
